Leadership Transitions: Identity Beyond the Title | The BizTech Pulse Podcast

Krishna Hari (00:05)
Welcome back to the BizTech podcast — the BizTech Pulse, the show where finance, technology and ⁓ thought leadership, people come together from today’s enterprise. I’m your host, Krishna Hari. And today the conversation is one of that I’m looking forward for and with an author, with an enterprise executive who has grown through the ranks. …

⁓ Welcome, Irene a brief introduction: Irene holds an MBA from Radford, executive credentials from MIT and Harvard, and a cybersecurity certification from CISM. And is finishing her doctorate. She is graduating this month. Congratulations, Irene. ⁓

Irene Thong (00:49)
Thank you. Thank

you, Hari

Krishna Hari (00:50)
Yeah, and she’s also a mentor of the year for her work developing the next generation of leaders. She has ⁓ become one of the more thoughtful and candid voice in the CIO community. And that’s Welcome to the podcast, Irene. ⁓ And for the for the listeners, if you can introduce yourself about your background and where you are today, so that will be helpful.

Irene Thong (01:04)
Thank you, Hari.

Yeah, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are. My name is Irene Thong. I’m originally from Malaysia — very humble beginning. ⁓ My dad was a taxi driver. My mom was a hairdresser and we have 5 of us in the family. I’m the oldest. I like to tell my siblings that I’m the boss, but it doesn’t quite work that way. So anyway —

you know, education really changed my life. I always have big dreams. I remember telling my parents that, you know, said, “Mom, I, you know, I want to be famous and I want to help people one day”. And, you know, at that time, my parents were managing my expectations and said,

you know, “Slow down” and “How are you going to be famous, you know, given our current conditions?” … You know, I never really let a limit stop me. And when I say I want to be famous, I want to make sure I clarify this. When I was growing up, my world was very small, very, very I only get to see other people’s world outside of my environment through a television. And I always see that

you know, when you’re famous, you can help a lot of people — and I want to help. So I naively said, “I want to be famous and I want to help people”. But, um, after high school, I worked at a college and didn’t continue, even though my results were good, didn’t continue, uh, and, uh, work. And eventually I was very good with meeting people like, you know, meeting Hari yourself.

Over time, I got a scholarship to do college. I did not know how to pick, to be honest with you, ⁓ but my process was very simple — process of elimination. I was not very good in biology and I was not very good in chemistry, but I was really good in physics and math. So I said, “Okay, we narrow it down to electrical engineering.”

Got a scholarship in West Virginia, came to the US. My world really have changed.

After I graduated, economy was not very good, but ended up working for packaging industry. And then fast forward — through a lot of help, guidance, trial and errors — my world bring me to cybersecurity, information technology, and project management for yeah, global organization. Yeah.

Krishna Hari (03:21)
It’s an amazing journey.

It’s an amazing journey — think it’s very inspiring, especially the arc. Looking back, across the 20 years, what was the one single inflection point you had which you can share?

Irene Thong (03:34)
Yeah, ⁓ definitely there are several. So the first one, definitely is, you know, when I came to the country, that was one inflection point because it went from hopeful to possible, you know, and that was one. And then the second point was really, you know, throughout my career, I was able to do a lot of things and just never really felt grounded.

You know, never really grounded;

I always kept dreaming. I think I would say the second inflection point really is, you know, meeting my husband — having his support. My world got bigger as I got to know him because, you know, I would like to tell you that I’m really that good, but my husband really see me for who I am and always support me. Steve always, you know, ⁓

you know, tells me that my world is bigger than what’s possible. And that really is an inflection point because, you know, when we as women, we work hard, Hari, day to day, and sometimes we don’t know we are valued. You know, we don’t know how to say that. And when someone else sees what you have done, just like you approaching me and say,

“Wow, this is incredible”.

We deserve some celebration. Everybody does. Everybody listening to this podcast — I want you to know that you deserve, the celebration of yourself. It doesn’t have to be huge. Very simple as

— “Today, I did something that I’m proud alone can really change your perspective in life. And last but not least is recently — Hari I had a change in, you know, I was working for a company for eighteen and a half years,

had a good run and ⁓ now — reaching an inflection point, and I’ll start a new row in a few weeks here, still as a CIO. But I will say that I can already see, you know, this is the chapter that I’m looking forward to start, yeah.

Krishna Hari (05:19)
Coming back — I think your CIO journey is amazing. Because you had a technical background, then I think technical depth to the business fluency. When did you realize in the CIO job that it’s not a technology job, but it’s more of a… What are your thoughts on that?

Irene Thong (05:38)
I realized it really early because… here’s the thing. If you think about it, the people that create the technology is a group of a population, let’s just call it. But the group that really uses technology is the broader group. So let’s just say, for sake of ⁓ illustration — in manufacturing, you have one IT department, right?

But you got the marketing, you got the finance, you’ve got, the supply chain, you got so many other groups. So if we’re solely focused on the technology itself and we don’t focus on, you know, the greater good — how people can use technology to help them do their job better and make their life better, then we would be remiss.

Krishna Hari (06:20)
Absolutely. You nailed it. I think it takes time for people to realize. One of the CIO friend of mine was telling me that he grew from the IT side, from the programming side. Then he started taking various other roles, like from CIO, he became CISO. Then he became CDO, Chief Data Officer.

If you see the business impact these roles had, he had accomplished that. And then he said, “What next?”

He moved on to various roles within the organization.

Irene Thong (06:47)
Yeah.

Krishna Hari (06:50)
You have been a great contributor in the CIO forum. A couple of articles — I went through it. And one thing which drew is one title, three jobs — the various CIOs — the mid-level CIOs, the core enterprise CIOs and the startup CIOs. I would like you to talk about it.

Irene Thong (07:09)
Yeah, you know, the CIO title — first and foremost, you can be the head of something, the CIO, the VPs and there are so many titles. But at the end of the day, when we say CIO here is that lead IT enterprise transformation. And here’s the thing. You got one title, but there’s really many realities.

it depends on what organization —

Smaller organization, you know, quick to respond, innovation. Sometimes, you have to play the commercial role. Right? (It’s not sometimes — quite a lot, actually.)

Then when you’re in the mid-size organization, it’s different. You may have to be operational. You have to understand, ⁓ how you can make sure your vision come to reality — but through a lot of hats, you wear a lot of hats.

And then if you are in Fortune 500, where you have a lot of structure, a lot of layers, then you’re really focusing on governance, integrations, being an enterprise leader, not just a technology leader. I would call it business leaders that have, you know, know-how in technology and know-how to capitalize on it to make a difference for, you know, for the business and for the customers and the consumers.

Krishna Hari (08:19)
Absolutely. I never realized — I haven’t been on the other side of the table. So it was so nice that you distributed, categorized the roles of CIO in various levels. The other one, I think — the false divide between strategic and operational, right? I have seen this in a lot of mid-market, as well as enterprise —

Irene Thong (08:38)
Yeah.

Krishna Hari (08:38)
A typical lifespan of a CIO title is averaging three to four years max, right? And I just wanted your thoughts on that.

Irene Thong (08:43)
That’s right. Yes.

So here’s the it depends on whether you’re publicly listed or not — some organizations, every three to four years, they change. And when they’ve changed, what they really are saying is — they need a new leader. Yeah, because the things that is happening is not working. But if it is working, they will continue. However,

it depends on if it is a public listed company, there’s also a impact if they change leader. Right. So what I think is every company has its reason. Sometimes it’s the simplest and the clearest way to communicate to the general public that not just we’re doing this little step change, we’re really making a bigger change that really matters — by changing the head

of the area.

Krishna Hari (09:33)
Definitely, I think the amount of changes happening with the technology piece right is so, so fast. ⁓ The other one is the prior equivalency trap.

For example, When people hire a CIO, sometimes the board may think, “Has he done anything in AI?”

AI is evolving now, right?

Irene Thong (09:53)
Yes.

Krishna Hari (09:54)
“Have we done AI in our industry?”

Irene Thong (09:56)
Yeah.

Krishna Hari (09:57)
It’s like, on the candidate hiring manager will say, “Hey, can I have a 10 year experience AI guy?”

I mean, people started doing AI projects in the last two, three years. You’re asking for 10 years experience. Give me a break. Right. Similarly, the board expectation that only if you have done a similar project, you’ll be successful in the current role.

That’s not what you expect. What you expect is — whether this guy can do it. Whether he has done challenging jobs earlier, whether he can do it.

Irene Thong (10:19)
Mm-mm.

Right, right, right. Yeah, there are

only two fold to this. One is on the individual level, you need to know that — don’t take a job that you cannot do. And that includes — cannot do within the culture that you’re given. So let’s just say this, if you’re so used to a Fortune 500 culture and you go to a startup,

which is a faster mode where you have to be potentially more hands-on and the nature of the job is very different, even though you can do it, you really might not want to do it, right? Now, let’s look at a hiring manager perspective. In this case would be CEO, COO, CFO. When you’re hiring a CIO, you really also need to think about what do you need? What kind of problems do you have?

Are you lacking of someone that have technical knowledge that can communicate, can get along,

that can

are you having those talent already, but you really need someone that have technical chops to bring it together? You sometimes needs both, right? So let’s just say a — ⁓ a CIO, as you say, Hari, they have been spending all their time doing ERP implementation.

You know, whether it’s upgrading ERPs or, you know, deploying certain ERPs — those projects take a long time. It could take one year, two years, three years, depending on the scale. Right. So after that stance, and if, if the hiring manager is looking at the CIO, they’re going to say,

“Whoa, all the last three, four years, all you’ve done is ERPs.

You didn’t do any AI.

Do you know what that is?”

I think that’s a legitimate questions as far as in asking, but don’t stop just at the resume. If, if you have done a lot of things that (could) only be successful because you are a good communicator, and I need a communicator, but I need a communicator that needs AI experience, then give it a chance.

Talk to that person and have that person, you know, articulate to you. Cause I got news for you. If you hire someone so technical at the top level, right? At the top level. And if they can’t lead and they can’t communicate in the right way and bring the right people together, you can’t weaponize it. You know, I’ll give you an example. You know, because my dad was a taxi driver, we have been ingrained.

“Don’t drive fast, drive safe.”

So you can give me a very fast car, a Lamborghini or any car to me. Can I drive? Yeah, I can drive. But if they say, “Have you driven at this speed before?”

The reality is I have not because this is the fastest car I’ve ever seen or ever had got my hand on. But it doesn’t mean I cannot. But if you say, “Irene,

we need someone that knows how to drive these because tomorrow is the You need an executor. Then I’m not your guy. I’m not your gal. But if you say,

“I need to build drivers, I need people that go find drivers that can maximize the potential of this car.” Now I have leadership skills. I know how to assess and I know how to find you the right people through connections and stuff. Then maybe that’s a great way. So I think we really need to know.

Krishna Hari (13:27)
You froze.

Irene Thong (13:31)
What exactly does a company need and what exactly also does the CIO need?

Krishna Hari (13:37)
I read through the book. It was really impressive what you have written. No one has thought about this and written anything because in between jobs, people are

⁓ in their own world, but I think you have written an amazing on various things which people go through. What sort of audience did you target? I mean, looks like people as you said, ⁓ go through a marriage or divorce or between jobs or…

You can relate this to other areas as well.

Irene Thong (14:07)
Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ So, the book title is ‘The Chapter in Between’.

Krishna Hari (14:11)
Why this book and why now?

Irene Thong (14:13)
Yeah. So, this has been, you know, an interesting development. Right now in the world — if you think about it, there’s so many layoffs, so many people, are experiencing changes. you look at the history, you know, divorce rate is pretty high. Uh, people looking for jobs, people losing their jobs, looking for a change. Uh, people… perhaps,

you know, ask themselves what they’re doing is the best, ⁓ is because they might not be with a lot of people, I recognized that sometimes when things are really good externally, people are still questioning what they’re doing. Is this the right thing for me? Is this, you know, am I doing the right thing? You for me this is the perfect time because —

Krishna Hari (14:36)
Thank you.

Irene Thong (14:58)
we’re in the world of uncertainties, with a lot of we’re really going through a different era, you know, altogether. And, as far as into anyone that go through major life changes, positive or negative. And when I say positive or negative, sometimes you go into a new job. It’s very exciting, right? It’s very exciting. But the challenge is, what’s on your mind? You know, did you

leave the previous job because you run away from the previous job and you’re going into an unknown. Or are you going to a job that you’re really excited about that you’re going to be making changes or experiencing changes that really can, you know, exercise your talent, and your vision. Right. For the company. It’s really aligned.

I’m hoping that, you know, for those of you who check out the book, you know, ‘The Chapter in Between’,

it’s about leadership, identity, and the space between what was and what comes next. And I want you to kind of challenge you for a little bit — today, when you are reading LinkedIn or when you’re reading an article, how do you know those are not written by AI? Now, if it is, if you find yourself writing an email, and then you ask yourself,

“Probably should put this in AI and think about making it sound better”, right? So eventually I think, I think that’s great. It helps you write better. It helps you be a better over time, don’t lose your identity. Sometimes it’s not about the perfection. It’s about the imperfection, but the sincerity, the true self of your voice.

Krishna Hari (16:18)
Absolutely.

No, I agree. I’m 100 % with you on this. I think definitely you use these tools as a guardrail or as improvements and stuff like that. But the core of it, you have to own it and it has to come from you personally. I mean, even the writing or whatever it is, I think we can take help. That’s OK. But I think the

the crux of the matter has to come from you basically.

Irene Thong (16:53)
Yeah,

I mean, let’s kind of play it out a little bit. So the first thing most people want people say,

“Who is Irene?” Right. And many times you expect the person to say,

“I am Irene.”

The next thing is do I do. Very quickly. So people equate to what we do as in who we are. But let me tell you, I’m a mom, I’m a wife, I’m a student, I’m a CIO, I’m a friend, right?

⁓ And sometimes I’m a driver and I’m a you know, a lot of a lot of roles that I play So really we have so many identity that we carry right so many elements of identity But who are you when somebody really asks you? You know, would you like to say

I’m Irene.” ⁓

“I love to help people and I’m here to have a great conversation with all of you.”

Or would you say —

“Hi, I’m Irene. I’m a CIO. I know a lot about technology and ask me any question and I’ll answer you about that area.”

What I just said — those two, it’s the same person right here. So I think it’s really important for us to understand who we are and what do we want to do and why do we want to do that. I hear a lot of people say, “I want a promotion.”

So I would say, “Okay, why do you want a promotion?”

So, many times it is

want to make more money.

I need to more money to pay bills.

I’m not happy where I am.”

Or sometimes

“I’m very happy where I am, but everybody around me is getting promotion. I should get one too, you know?”

So what is it? Maybe you said, “I have been doing the work of [X] role, but I am, you know, I’m being labeled or paid [X] minus something.

Right? It could be very well, right? But there’s “Hey, I’ve been paying as a director, but I really have been doing a manager job. Take my salary away.” That doesn’t happen. Right. Once you go up, doesn’t come back down. So I think really, if you know why you want to do something, if you know your identity,

it naturally comes across because today, “I’m going to go help someone.” Right? I just had this conversation with someone when we’re in a ‘community’, what does it mean?

That means you are in a community in good times and in bad times. But if you’re only in good times when we can go do something together and when we cannot go do something together and you’re outside of the community, then you get lost. And I think so many people, especially the higher you go when you’re in the C-suite and when you own a business, right Hari, like you own a business. If things don’t go right, you feel like your world just crumpled.

You know, nothing is successful. Really of what you’ve accomplished. It’s that 1%, maybe you didn’t hit the mark. I love what Nelson Mandela said — really my favorite,

“I never lose. I win or I learned.”

Krishna Hari (19:35)
Yeah, yeah. He was an amazing person. Coming back, I think inside ‘The Chapter in Between’,

if you can give some tidbits — what do you suggest?

Irene Thong (19:48)
So what I wanted to remind, everybody, is that when you have the space, take advantage of it. Don’t be scared. Sometimes when you’re in a room, when nobody speaks, it’s a very nerve-wracking thing because when you’re in the room for a meeting and nobody talks, that first five minutes is very awkward. As an extrovert, sometimes we feel like we need to say something.

Krishna Hari (19:51)
Bye!

Irene Thong (20:12)
Right? And I can tell you, I am at fault at that. But what if you use that space, you know, the space that you have when you’re in between, maybe, you know, between the previous job and the future job,

or between the last day of my school and the first day of my job,

or the last day of my marriage before the next future, you know, the single me, right? When you have the space, don’t try to just feel it.

Because without thinking through, may feel with everything, but the thing that you really truly enjoy, need, you know, or feel good about. So in this case, I wanted to write a book where people don’t just push the time. What is this ‘in-between time’? It’s not a gap. You know, people labeled ‘in between’ as a ‘gap’. What if it is something that we all

go through to grow up, to be more mature. You know, let me just give some example. Let’s take, you know, job for a reason. It’s a job, an in between job might be easier here just to have a your last job, before your new job, sometimes people stop talking to you. You know, the normal — when you go to

coffee shop when somebody

how you’ve been doing? How’s work?”

Uh-oh. They know they couldn’t ask this. So they stopped talking to you. Right? But if you really know who you are, you can

“Man, I never really get to come here at nine o’clock in the morning because I’m usually at work”, you know, “and I’m really enjoying this

going to sit here, get a cup of coffee and think about it. So you sit there, you people watch.”

But at the same time, you think about what do I want my day to be? Or how do I want my day to be to call it a good day? Call it a good day. So I would say use the space to think about what’s aligned with you and really use your sensory to think about the clarity that comes to you. Don’t try to construct clarity, Hari. When I say construct clarity, don’t try to analyze everything.

You know, if you try to analyze everything, you’re going to come to an answer promise. You’re to get to an answer, but then you’re going to pick that answer. And then you’re going to feel, ⁓ something is not right because you didn’t let the space to do you justice or to simply allow yourself to speak for yourself for once without any influence from your wife, your husband, your children, your bosses, nobody.

So give yourself that few days, few weeks, however long you need. And I want everyone to take this time. And when you’re given this time, believe it or not, it’s a blessing. It’s not a curse. Some of you might think that it’s a curse. No, if you sometimes were given many of these times, maybe it is a sign that we need to think about why, why does this keep happening to me? Right? And I think

if you can do that, if you’re looking at the book, you’re reading the book, I’m happy to talk more. You know, you can reach me. But I think most importantly is give yourself that space, walk through with pride. And there are so many people that I’m talking to today — probably just lost job or know someone that lost job. Don’t be afraid. Be brave, walk through it and say, “You know what? I can still wake up in the morning and breathe

and think about what I can do next.”

Krishna Hari (23:30)
It’s amazing, what you’re saying. Again, one of the other important messages I got is the role-based identity. Basically, you’re asking people to move from a role-based identity to self-based identity.

Irene Thong (23:43)
Great, you put it so well. Thank you.

Krishna Hari (23:45)
So at the end of the day, we might be a CIO, CFO or CEO and maybe there is a better role or a better company which is coming your way, right? With bigger challenges, whatever it is. Sometimes the way I look at it, is when you are moving from one role to another role — if you are confident about yourself,

Irene Thong (23:57)
Correct.

Krishna Hari (24:06)
if you know what you are, develop that, network it, go and help somebody that way you will be active. That’s why the people say,

“Take a contracting gig” or “Do the speaking engagement” or “Go network with people and help a couple of guys.”

I mean if you are alone and staying alone you get depressed and stuff.

Irene Thong (24:26)
Yeah, let me tell you, if you find yourself in the in-between space, most of us are not aware when we’re in the in-between, only when it’s big moments, you know? But if you find yourself in a big way that you’re in between, do not disappear. That was a good advice that someone gave me. Do not disappear. Walk outside, have pride,

be open. If you know what you want to do, you know exactly where you want to head — head. So Hari do exactly what you say. Be very intentional. Go to the support group or go to this network that can help you. But if you’re still trying to figure things out, just be open, just be open to anything that comes your way and say, “Okay, yes, let me try.” and see what

you’ll be surprised that you find out that you like pickleball. Maybe you have never played pickleball and you say, “I like pickleball”. Or you can say that, “Okay, I actually quite enjoy doing X or not doing So be open to the idea and learn and really feel what’s right by you and what’s right for you.

And unless you give yourself a little bit of these moments of space to yourself, you may not necessarily know what you really need. You may know what you want, but you may not really know what you really need.

Krishna Hari (25:44)
⁓ What are the most common transition mistakes people make in your experience?

Irene Thong (25:49)
Yeah. I wouldn’t say just ‘transition mistake’, but I would say definitely an ‘oversight’ is, when people don’t prioritize the true self. ⁓ They may prioritize the immediate feelings — “I don’t want this. I want that. Therefore let me find something that maybe will give me that”

Right.

I would say that when you are transitioning, look, ⁓ I’m not naive that we all have priorities. We all have to pay bills, right? Some people are in better position than others. And if you’re in a position where you, the next day of getting a job means paying bills, then get what you can to pay the bills, right? But be proud of it. Even if you have to work at the mall or whatever, that’s a lot lower

positioned than you are know that you’re not working at a mall. You are providing for your family. If you feel that way, you’re not going to be shy about it. You’re not going to cover your face when your neighbor walks through the door. Right. You just say, “Hi, Hari, how are you doing? Yeah. I’m still in between, you know, finding the next job and the this job, but man, I to pay bills, you know, so here I am. Here I am. Hey, you got better stuff. Do you have something you can recommend me? I would love it.” You know, this is tough to do it

for very long time. Be proud like that. Just answer it that way. Because I want you guys to know, if you worry about the other person that walked towards you judge you, let me tell you, you judge yourself before that person judge you because you hear yourself before the person opened their mouth, right? So if you were to turn the table and say, “Hari, listen.

I’m trying to look for another job. This is my skills, but I don’t get anything yet, but in between I have to feed my kids. So I am here.” When you say that, do you know what the other person’s going to do? Is there something I can do to help Irene? I mean, she’s so talented. I don’t want her to, you know, to be, to be doing whatever it is. Right? And to be, I want to make sure I say this to be doing what someone is not proud of.

Because I believe there’s a purpose in every job, whether you’re a janitor, whether you’re a housekeeper. Let me tell you, my housekeeper is super important to me. It’s not just cleaning floors, taking stuff away, but she enables or he enables me to do my job. So everyone look at a job differently. I look at the person that come and cut

lawn. It is super important because if they don’t come, I don’t have a nice lawn and my neighbors might give me a hard time. You know, so it’s not just the bigger the job, the more, ⁓ prestige it might, it’s just a different job. So I want all of you here, if you’re listening today, do not not be proud of yourself. Be proud of yourself that number one, you are willing to do whatever to help your family, yourself,

to be responsible of paying bills. And don’t be afraid to ask for help. It’s really powerful by saying, I need help. And just remember this, back, pay it forward. When you get somewhere, pay it forward, you know, and that’s most important.

Krishna Hari (28:38)
Absolutely.

Yeah, you it. A couple of things, with the AI in industrial operation, what is the real value versus theatrical saying, right? As you say, I mean, what is your honest opinion about this agentic AI for industrial enterprise? You build, you have to buy, you have to borrow. What do you do with the current?

Irene Thong (29:06)
Yeah, I think it’s.

⁓

Listen, AI has been coined since the 1950s. And then of course you have generative AI and then you have agentic AI, right? I think there’s a place for it. And with the demographics changed in the world, there’s absolutely a place for agentic AI. But what I would ask is,

before you use technology or before you deploy agentic AI, ask yourself, what are you trying to get help from or with? So for example, if you have something that’s very consistent, it requires speed, and you really cannot find people to do the work, for example, and more effectively, then consider it, because agentic AI can help.

you need to make sure, you need to know the explicit requirements and implicit requirements are known. So for example, if you need an agent to take your kids to school, right? You cannot just say, okay, you pick it up from the house and then you drop them off in the school. You may need a little something. “When you get to the house, walk through the front door.”

You know. “Or knock on the front door. My kids will meet you there. And then please lock the door, put them in the car, drive to school and make sure you open the door and let them out so that they can go to school.” So you might not say in this example, you may not communicate to people the importance of coming through the front door. You may not tell people the importance of opening the door before the kids can get out, right?

It seemed, it looks, if I were to say, come pick up my kids and go to school, it seems very clear, right? It seems very easy to execute, but there were so many things that Hari, if you were the one that helped me with my kids, there’s so many things that you have experienced in and you just do it. Right. Agentic AI doesn’t always have preference or experience that you have for many, many years.

or do it consistently exactly how you would like it, right? If you don’t prescribe it, you don’t tell them what you like enough, it will do something. It will hallucinate. It will do something that may be harmful, may not be harmful. So I would say that before you do agentic AI, know what you’re trying to do. Know what is the consequences if it doesn’t.

If it, you know, if it doesn’t do exactly what you do or it does more than what you ask them to do. And you know what? I believe that you need to have trust. You need to have accountability when you use AI. So if that agentic AI went rogue, who is responsible? Do you have a way of reversing what you’ve done to undo the

That’s an important one. You know how I’m not a lawyer, but it’s very interesting. I love watching these, you know, this lawyers arguing the court, you know, I’m not sure how much of it is true, but I’m, I just wanted to say that, okay, I love enjoying watching this show, but sometimes lawyer would say something and then they say they withdraw, right? But when they do that, they’re really, they mean it.

They mean to say something because nobody can unhear it. Right. So when you use agentic AI, that’s the same thing. If something happened, you may not be able to undo the damage. You can undo the steps, but you cannot undo the damage. Is that truly a damage or is that just a lessons or is that going to have any, any bearing to your future reputation? If it’s not, maybe it’s a good candidate, start small, be able to roll back.

Krishna Hari (32:17)
Mmm.

Irene Thong (32:40)
And by the way, if you’re deploying it, you’re leading transparency of what you’re doing. Hari, we’re going to use agentic AI to serve our customer now. Today, Chris does this one way. We’re setting up the workflow exactly what Chris does. Are you comfortable, Hari? Because you are the one that lead that group. And if you say, yes, we’re going to do it.

Let’s test it for three months and if it works out, then we’re good. If it doesn’t work out, we roll back. Here’s how we would roll back…” It needs partnership.

Krishna Hari (33:10)
Absolutely,

within our own organization, we have been trying a few things. Some things are working, some things are not. You still have to babysit. The way I look at it is, I always tell my folks, hey, as a small organization, you need to adapt and see how you can bring efficiency at the end of the day.

Let’s do this internally, test it out. If it works, it works. If it doesn’t, move on, right? And make sure that it doesn’t impact customers or anything which is an exposure, unnecessary, unless and until I’m 100% sure, right? So coming back, ‘women in tech’. Your doctoral lens. A research topic as well for you.

Irene Thong (33:44)
Yes.

Krishna Hari (33:52)
I would love to your thoughts on that.

Irene Thong (33:55)
So my ⁓ dissertation is about leadership strategies and enterprise transformation. Specifically, the population that I focus on is women CIO. Less than a quarter of CIOs in Fortune 500 are women CIOs. And there’s just a lot of things, but what I’ve discovered is, first of all,

Krishna Hari (34:01)
Thank you.

you

Irene Thong (34:15)
there have been a lot of women that have been successful. I don’t want everybody to kind of say,

“Hey, you know, there’s only a quarter — of women in Fortune 500 — are CIOs.”

We have a quarter of women as CIOs. So think about it in a positive way. About 25% of the women figured it out.

What I really wanted is to create kind of a playbook. How did you get there? We all have different backgrounds. So I cannot give you a recipe exactly what I do because you may or may not be able to do what I do. Right? So what I can tell you is if you want to be a and you’re man or woman,

you need to have the fundamental skills. The fundamental technical skills is important. You know,

Even if you’re leading from the top, if you happen to not be a technologist to begin with and you started to lead IT, that’s my case, by the way. mean, I have background in electrical engineering, not necessarily computer science or something. But I wanted you to know that regardless of where you start, you need to have technical chops. You need to understand how things work, period. Now, studies have also shown that during inflection points, right?

When, when a company is ready to change, ready to make some big moves. That’s the moment, the moment that you can operationalize your skills. So if you just have skills and you don’t have a chance, it, nothing happens. You know, Seneca says that luck is when preparations meets opportunity. Right? So you need to have preparation and then the opportunity

is when an organization says, “I’m ready to change.” They will have criteria that’re potentially different than what they have. Studies have shown also as women typically get a rise or get selected into those moments, right? Once you get to the position, you need to lead enterprise – critical movement.

Or changes. So you don’t just do IT projects or very large IT projects that are just within IT, right? You really need to think about rising up to become an enterprise leader. And when I say an enterprise leader, what is the most important thing for the business right now? You know, what’s the most important thing for the business? Top three things for the business today that if you talk to the CEO, you talk to the CFO, you talk to the COO, you talk to the CHRO, they all sing from the same sheets of music.

Are you great? If you’re not, please do. Sometimes people say that, I need to have a seat at the table to be able to make an impact. Well, that’s when you make an assumption that the C-suite plays nice and they communicate together. That’s not always the case, by the way, guys. So what you need to do is listen to what’s most important to the organization,

and align your efforts to it and communicate and say, “Hey, I see you’re trying to do this. By the way, if we do this, this directly will deliver this within the time that you want.”

It’s really important to kind of meet people halfway. Sometimes you might need to go 75% of the way to meet them halfway, but you do it. Now, the last part here, if you get a chance to lead enterprise business transformation initiative,

you need to work with your organization. This piece come from the organization piece. The organization must make the authority or the governance mandates. For example, if we deploy anything that have technology elements, within our governance, there is a, technology leadership oversight to then make sure that

these governance — AI governance, for example, right?, or risk enterprise governance group — needs to include someone that knows about technology, right? And by the way, then it becomes a cycle. So the more you do this — “So, okay, now I’m a first time CIO, I do this, I’m part of the AI governance.”

And then you go through the cycle of, “I have skills” and then “I might get promoted to CIDO” or from a VP to SVP to EVP. There’s all kinds of titles, right?

And then you lead bigger efforts. And then the company also makes — the CEO or the leader of the company has a role as need to publicly mean it and just really kind of say, “Okay, we have been very successful in doing this. We involve, Irene, in IT to help with this. And we are going to.

assemble an enterprise risk group that has that role in the group”, and then you keep doing it. So it’s actually ⁓ a cycle. So I would say that for those of you who really wanted to rise up to be a technology leader:

get your chops together, be in tune, network and know when there’s an opportunity in organization and then volunteer and say, “Yes, I would like to take on that role”, work hard at it.

And then what you have been doing successful get incorporated into company culture. And then it will be basically a cycle and it will get stronger. It’s like a wave first cycle, second, stronger, that stronger, and then it becomes very strong and stable.

Krishna Hari (39:11)
I agree. I mean, amazing tips which we are sharing ⁓ for the budding technology leaders who want to become a future CIO, especially. The way I look at it is definitely, I have read Indra Nooyi’s memoir, her growth, how she sacrificed — for you guys to hold the biological clock and the career clock.

That’s a huge… It basically, it runs parallel, right? I think the way she managed her career to be the CEO of PepsiCo for a long time, It’s amazing. I mean, it’s not easy, especially with the corporate pressure — when the title brings its own level of pressure and performance and stuff like that. Coming back — you were named the ‘Pathfinder Mentor of the Year’.

Irene Thong (39:53)
Yeah, and I was just gonna say…

Krishna Hari (39:58)
uh… Want… Wanted to get your thoughts on a mentorship that actually works

Irene Thong (40:04)
Yeah.

And I think when you’re a mentor it’s really important to not push your own agenda to your mentee. Help your mentee think through their own thoughts, you know —

what they aspire to are the challenges. Believe in them that they can walk through their problems. When you’re a mentor, it’s really hard. If you just give somebody a prescription, here’s what I would do if I were you.

Right? If you do that, you really undermine the people that you mentor. Because you need to believe that the people that you mentor, they can rise up, but you do need to help them collaborate. Think, Hari, what have you tried? Okay. Why do you think it doesn’t work? Have you thought about this? What do you think if we do this? And make them think through it because sometimes,

when you’re mentoring people, there is the emotional side of things that we have to take care of. It’s not just about tactical. It’s not the action. You know, it’s not something like,

“Let me mentor you. I’ll give you three things to do and my job is done.” It’s not like that. It’s more about letting you see through all the things that you’ve went through and talking to you out loud — actually allow them to talk out loud.

And sometimes you might hear, “Wow, this is what you think? I’m thinking this big and you’re thinking this small”, or “I’m thinking this small, you’re thinking so big.”

Let them talk through it and then really help them to identify the path for them to feel the best. What you don’t want is, “Hari, let me tell you what to do and you do it and it’s successful.”

Guess what happens the next time when the same problem happens or another problem happens?

“I need to call

you just make yourself, you know, you, you create it. You’re not empowering them. You’re really creating a club, you know, a crutch where they, every time they need to solve a problem, they don’t have the confidence. They say, “I need a more confident me, which is Irene.” You don’t want that. You want them to feel that “Irene says, I got this. She told me how I think through this. Okay. I’ve thought through 75% of that. Okay. Now I’m going to call her.

Krishna Hari (41:54)
It’s a problem.

Irene Thong (42:11)
“Because I still can’t get through the remaining 25%.” But you know what? They have worked through 75%. Now you can help them to 25. And over time, they’re self-sufficient. They don’t need you. They just need someone that knows that they’re willing to go through a lot to achieve what they want. They just need you to be an advocate, someone that listen to them.

Krishna Hari (42:34)
Absolutely.

Closing message and if you could leave some messages for the leadership, CIOs, CFOs and senior leadership listeners with one message about navigating transition, ⁓ what could that be?

Irene Thong (42:51)
Yeah.

⁓ I would say that if you’re CEO, CFO, you know, C-suites, continue to changing. There’s a lot of uncertainties. It’s very hard to lead with 20-year old education and only the experience that applied to you in the moment that you have continue to learn. And it’s okay to listen to someone below you, to give you the ideas and assess it.

And no matter how ridiculous the idea is, let the person that talked to you expand a little bit on that. Expand a little bit on that because you might find that what takes you here may not take you further. And for you to go further, you may need some newer way of thinking.

Krishna Hari (43:27)
and it’s clear.

Irene Thong (43:35)
I say newer way of thinking — a thinking that you may have already thought about, but couldn’t articulate and someone else articulates to you. ‘Cause I can tell you, Hari, it’s a lot easier to look at someone when someone tell you the idea and you can process it a lot clearer. So be open-minded, continue to learn and be supportive and have empathy.

Krishna Hari (43:56)
OK. I think, can we do a rapid fire round? My first question is — Coffee, tea, something stronger after a brutal go-live weekend? Good. The one word every CIO resume right now that has officially lost all meanings.

Irene Thong (44:00)
Yeah, sure.

Tea.

‘Resilience’.

Krishna Hari (44:16)
Best career advice you have ever been given in 10 words or fewer.

Irene Thong (44:21)
“Believe in yourself”.

Krishna Hari (44:23)
One book other than your own, that you would put in the hands of every executive.

Irene Thong (44:29)
Bell Hooks’ ‘All About Love’. And the reason I mention is — she really talks about how you should see yourself and what love really is. And to really transition in a good way, you really need to know how to love yourself.

Krishna Hari (44:44)
Great. If you could rewind to your very first day as a CIO and whisper one sentence to your past self, what would it be?

Irene Thong (44:52)
“You need to learn how to find satisfaction from within”.

Krishna Hari (44:55)
Terrific, terrific. It’s amazing, amazing. We had a great conversation, I think. To our listeners, ⁓ if today’s episode of BizTech Pulse landed for you, please take a moment to subscribe, rate the show with a colleague who is ⁓ leading transformation, navigating a transition, and thinking about what comes next inside their organization. You can find every episode

in Spotify, Apple Podcast, and in our LinkedIn page as well. If you want to continue the conversation with Irene, pick a copy of her new book, ‘The Chapter in Between’, it is on Amazon. You will find her LinkedIn profile and the link to the book in the show notes as well. Until next time, stay curious, stay deliberate, and keep transforming. Thank you.

Irene Thong (45:41)
Thank you.